Exactly.

And no.

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Shawn Carpenter
Game Designer, Ambush Alley Games

"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

YES !!! Time to order a bunch of Omni Stands.

So, the consesus here is TL2 Grav vehicles hover a few feet off the ground unless moving over something higher or moving NOE.

TL grav tanks do the same or may fly using the VTOL rules but may loiter on the table.

What about pop ups? Does the vehicle stay up once it "pops" or does it settle back down after it shoots?
Judging from the previous posts it would seem that TL2 tanks would go back down and TL3 would have the option. What say ya'll ?

If a TL3 tank goes up and stays up, it's not doing a pop-up. It's just going hull down behind a rooftop, which isn't the same thing at all. If it's just hovering there it won't get the -1FP - and neither will units firing AT it.

A vehicle doing a pop-up attack will rise suddenly, fire quickly, and then sink back out of sight - this is the reason for the -2FP for it and enemies shooting at it.

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Shawn Carpenter
Game Designer, Ambush Alley Games

"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

That's why I bought multiple lenghts of omnistands...to account for different altitudes for AGVs and the like...I plan to just swap them out as needed since it's pretty simple to do.



Definitely just kidding about the air combat game...

Brian

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Thanks!


GOD BLESS!
Brian

"goon squad"......lol...love it. Was anyone else thinking of a certain other game company when they read that?

If the opportunity ever came up, I'd be very happy to work with AAG on a small pdf supplement that spruced up the grav vehicle rules. Certainly not an air combat game, but tidy up a few loose ends, clarify a few things and generally give grav vehicles their due. If you're going to have them, I think at least make them meaningfully different from ground vehicles.

Until then, I'm still trying to grok the difference between NOE and popup...

I'll try to help!

NOE - a vehicle moving across the table and staying low enough to use available LOS blockers AND remain unhindered by ground conditions and most terrain movement penalties. The vehicle is hard to hit, but it isn't a stable gun platform, either.

Pop-Up - a vehicle bouncing up from behind a LOS blocker to fire a quick shot and then sink back into position.

No ground vehicle can do either of these things. What else would you add to differentiate them from ground vehicles?

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Shawn Carpenter
Game Designer, Ambush Alley Games

"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Can you please clarify, is an NOE craft flying over the terrain or dodging around it? I think you need to make a call and stick with it.

I would have a chart that sets out a height versus speed matrix clearly.
Basic/rapid move (10"/20") = your craft is just above ground level and must dodge around solid obstacles. Obviously, that means LOS obstacles will hide your craft.
NOE move (24") = your craft flies just above the terrain it is moving across. Therefore, it travels over solid obstacles rather than jinking around them. Hence, it can become exposed as it moves. [as an aside, I would implement turning restrictions at this speed - you can only make one direction change in a turn]
Flight move (move anywhere on the board) = your craft is treated as higher than the highest obstacle on the board. Hence it will almost always be in sight of anywhere on the board. [at this speed, I would say your craft only moves in straight lines]

I'd add in rules such that ground fire at a Flight Move craft always hits the belly (same armour rating as deck). Fire from a Flight Move craft always hits the deck of a target vehicle.

A Pop-Up would be defined as a complete move and fire action for a grav vehicle. Instead of horizontally covering any ground, the craft can rise vertically to whatever height the owning player desires. Normally this would be to allow it to draw a LOS/LOF to a target over an intervening obstacle and engage it (an exception to the rule requiring an LOS at the start of an activation would need to be made in the rule). After the round of fire, the craft descends to near ground level to complete the activation.

All seems reasonable except for shots to the belly armor. It would depend on the angle of attack the vehicle is currently maintaining (its posture/position). I would say anyone directly under would certainly get a belly shot. Game wise its easier to assume the veh crew is doing everything they can to minimize their profile to enemy troops. As an aside I would make belly armor at least as thick as side armor. Conventional tanks have thin belly armor for several reasons. One, its that its least likely to take a hit there so its the ideal location to save weight thats better spent elsewhere. With a grav vehicle the issue of weight becomes moot so there would be no reason not to place thicker belly armor. Another point- these things are supposed to fly down from orbit so it will have to deal with atmospheric friction to some degree or other. Who wants thin skin on re-entry?
As for what exactly the craft is doing while its flying NOE, Id say thats up to the player. If its dodging tall trees, leaping tall buildings, zipping in and out of ravines, make him take a an additional -1FP but give him a +1D defense to simulate the pilot/driver trying to use what cover he has to advantage. If he's just flying above everything go with the rules as written.
Also, with a grav vehicle the turns it takes or the direction it pointing is not relevant. They are not aircraft in the conventional sense. The direction its moving and the direction the nose is pointing can be two entirely different things and such vehicles would be able to re-orient themselves "on a dime". The only hindrance would be the G-forces the crew would have to withstand. Do a web search on some of the theoretical A-Grav research that DARPA and some others have done. Germany even did some theoretical studies in the 40s. It makes for some very interesting reading.

NOE is a pretty standard term that's been defined for a long time in military use. It literally means following the "nap of the earth" - skimming at low altitude above the ground, rising only high enough to follow the contours of the terrain. By doing so, the NOE aircraft can also take advantage of vertical LOS impediments to conceal itself from the enemy, such as tree-lines, built-up areas, etc. So, an NOE grav tank may be a few feet over a hill but well below the tops of a stand of trees on that hill. It's not an either or deal.

We didn't give AGVs a greater movement rate than normal AFVs because their ability to pretty much move as the crow flies (with the exception of NOE movement which might require some jinking around to take advantage of ground cover) effectively increases the distance they can move. If you want to adjust movement rates in your games, that's certainly no skin off our nose, however.

Flight movement is more of a mode of movement than a speed of movement. I would definitely agree that flying units move in a straight line from their current position to their destination unless they opt to go NOE.

I don't think thin belly armor would be a rule - I think some AGVs might have thin belly armor and others might not. We've always just used the AGV's Side armor rating.

Good thoughts! Thanks for sharing them! I'll definitely try to find time soon to write up a little PDF explaining our concept of AGV operations in more depth and try to address some of your concerns!

Best,

Shawn.

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Shawn Carpenter
Game Designer, Ambush Alley Games

"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Thanks sean!
I wouldnt say concerns- just some brain storming thoughts

So about those rules for grave tanks dog fighting amongst the clouds....................

On turning, note I said only one direction change per gameturn. I selected the words deliberately. I agree that a grav vehicle could probably face any way it liked while travelling on a different heading. But changing direction is a whole 'nother matter. A grav tank has no wings and few aerodynamic surfaces. Turning would be a bitch. YMMV, but I think restricting a vehicle moving at NOE speed to only one change of direction in a movement action seems fair. If you're going slower (10"/20") then allow unlimited changes of heading as per the standard rules.

Shawn, your description of NOE mode makes it no different than normal travel in the game. In both cases I'm skimming the ground dodging obstacles. In both cases LOS obstacles offer protection to me. Essentially, your NOE rule is just yet another, marginally faster move above rapid move. It just strikes me as a bit pointless. So I move 24" instead of 20" - yeehah.

I'm in a tracked vehicle. I want to drive from point A to point B, a distance of 20". In my path is a long stand of Average woods. It would take me 30" to drive around it. I can only travel through Average woods at tactical speed, so I can't possibly reach point B in one turn.

I'm in a TL2 Grav vehicle flying NOE. I skim over the trees and go straight to point B.

I think that's a pretty big difference.

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Shawn Carpenter
Game Designer, Ambush Alley Games

"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Here's a video demonstrating NOE travel - the chopper starts high, but as you watch you'll see him go very low and skim along over rough terrain while using low (VERY LOW) ridges as cover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqy_Kml0tU

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Shawn Carpenter
Game Designer, Ambush Alley Games

"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Or for an even bigger difference:

I'm in a tracked MBT. I advance towards the only bridge over a river to cross and threaten the enemy strongpoint on the far side. An enemy engineering team reacts by blowing the bridge before I get there. Damn, now I'm stuck here.

I'm in a TL2 AGV MBT. I ignore the bridge and advance straight over the river towards the strongpoint, pausing only to rake the engineers with tribarrel fire as I skim past, wondering why they were bothering to wire the bridge with demo charges.