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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:48 am 
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Thank you, Jerry. By any means keep the comments coming. :D
Treating the Autocannons more like tank main guns? I know the Sarna.net webpage. I didn't check that tank you gave as an example. If I would have, I'd have seen that an AC/20 doing what an Leopard 2A7' 125mm with "Heavy Hitter" does at a minimum :shock: .
But you may not forget that Gigantic vehicles on TechLevel2 may fire up to four main guns at different targets in one activation. So, what the guns do less damage, the amount firing will make more than equal I hope. I am trying not to overpower the Mechs. Just imagine what an ATLAS Mech could pull off on heavy firing with all its guns.
Please keep the suggestions coming guys, you are a huge help! thx!

Regarding "jump". There are jump rules in the TW rulebook. I just didn't notice at the first glimpse. May modify them a bit for vehicles though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:51 am 
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Hmmm, multiple weapons.
Hadn't thought of that and yeah the assault mechs can spit out a heap of fire if we count each one seperately and fire individually.
The only downside to reducing weapon capabilities would be that it might weaken the smaller mechs making them totally ineffective against the heavies.
I'll keep an eye on this as it mirror some of the stuff I have been setting my mind to.

Cheers

Jerry

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:50 am 
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Ok, after reviewing the damage chart for Gigantic Vehicles I suggest to change my weapon chart for the TW/Battletech as follows:
-all Autocannons keep their stats for AP and AT but will increase their type by 1 (ie "light" becomes "medium" etc.) That would make them look like this now:
Autocannon/2 AP:5/AT:2 (M)
Autocannon/5 AP:4/AT:3(M)
Autocannon/10 AP:4/AT:3(H)
Autocannon/20 AP:6/AT:4 (H)
LB 10-X A AP:5/AT:2 (H)
Machine Gun AP:3/AT:0 (L)
Ultra AC/5 AP:5/AT:4 (M)
-NOTE: all Autocannons (not the MG) are considered "Advanced Ballistical Support Weapons!! I applied the bonus already in those new stats.

Jerry you may also not forget:
-Important note on the "Laser" weapons in my list: they alway gain +1 on your damage rolls. (ER Laser also is "heavy hitter".)
I made them "slow firing" to represent that Pulse Lasers fire faster (they don't have "slow firing")

-"Energy" weapons ignore one die of Armor or Cover! (PPC's)

I also should tell that my thoughts are going towards the "group shot" direction. (That means, on the vehicle stats I am going to group weapons that are likely to be fired at once). For example a Mech might have 3 x Light Lasers: I would say you pool the dice for the three weapons and roll them together representing one shot coming out of three barrels towards a target.

By the way: all MECHs are GIGANTIC. But I give them still the armor stats for light, medium or heavy vehicles.
-A MARAUDER for example is a heavy Mech, so it would have D12 armor values for front and side.
-A GRIFFON is a medium Mech, it would have D10 armor value for front and side.

But all Mechs, no matter what weight class, use the Gigantic vehicle Damage Chart as I think with only one crew member they deserve to survive longer in their machines. The Artificial Intelligence that allows them to fire more main guns at a time I consider being the Mechwarrior's NeuroHelmet. When an AI is killed due to damage charts, I consider that a "weapon KO" instead. (maybe the wires/neuro transmitters to that gun have been cut by damage etc)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:56 am 
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the source material also varies wildly in various places

the AC-20 is usually listed as a 200mm Weapon
the AC-5 I have seen listed as either a 75mm or 105mm weapon

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:21 am 
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shadowcat wrote:
the source material also varies wildly in various places

the AC-20 is usually listed as a 200mm Weapon
the AC-5 I have seen listed as either a 75mm or 105mm weapon


You guys tell me..
do I make Autocannons the equivalent of modern day tank guns? Yes/No.

would that be
Autocannon/2 = 70- 85mm
Autocannon/5 = 85 - 105mm
Autocannon/10 = 105 - 125mm
Autocannon/20= Bigger than any modern tank main gun ?


some examples from Force On Force, suitable to recategorize Battletech Autocannons by making them real world's tank gun equivalents?

French-made 90mm AP:4D/AT:3D (M)


US-made 105mm AP:4D/AT:5D (H)


US-made 120mm AP:5D/AT:6D (H), heavy hitter (already included)


US-made 120mm/with canister round AP:6D/AT:4D (H), canister round (6D vs. troops in the open or light cover, reduced AT value due to only firing flechettes)


fantasy "200mm" gun AP:6D/AT:8D

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:00 pm 
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you could add a little flavor to some of the mech designs..

Awesome, Griffin, Charger/Hatamoto variants all have shoulder mounted baffles that I would count as extra side armor.

Quad Mechs are going to have different firing arcs from standard mechs

how are we going to handle mechs with Melee Weapons? Axeman, Hatchetman, No-Dachi, among others

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:05 pm 
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I need to fix weapon stats first. :wink: Let's figure out the basics before we try to add a thousand new rules. I want to keep it as simple as possible. I don't want to re-invent battletech - I want its miniatures to work with Tomorrow's War rules. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:19 pm 
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@sgt Scream
The energy weapons stats looked pretty good, and the included bonuses make them pretty fearsome weapons.
I like the idea of weapon groups i.e the kodiak has a battery of 4 ER medium lasers on each hand, so calliong it a laser array and rolling once for that as an attack would be slightly less devastating than a seperate attack for each laser. Plus the idea of it engagin multiple targets from the one hand stretches things a wee bit.
I'm torn to be honest between the games fluff which indicates the AC's are enormous and the need to balance it with the TW game mechanics.
I'm still pulling for something equivalent to a real world cannon but altered slightly to fit the mechanics.
I mean it's one thing to call an AC/10 a 105mm cannon but we don't have to use the real world stats.
Does TW have any proviso for vehicular CC as I'm keen to see mechs pounding each other to scrap mano e mano.

Cheers

Jerry

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:50 am 
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@Jerry:

I will group weapons that are likely being fired together (see the reason later in my explainations). I will however not group any different weapons (i.e. Light Laser and an Autocannon/5) together.
My reasoning: Assuming I am (and most other players) getting used to the stats quickly, I normally won't need to check my stats-sheets to know how many dice are rolled for, say, a Medium Laser. But: I don't want to learn the stats for a Medium Laser fired single are totally different from a vehicle that does fire two of them at once. Because: I rather like to remeber "hey, its so and so many for a Medium Laser" and then just double the amount (up to a maximum of 10 due to FirePower cap) if a "group" of two is fired on the same target. It's so much easier to remember.
I am trying to make this rules conversion set KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

That's why I'd like to know from you, if the approach of making Autocannons modern tank main guns' equivalents is good or bad. I am for example also a FoF player, who utilizes M1 Abrams tanks. The stats would be easy to remember for me - and it would give me an idea of what a Mech can pull off in a fight without having to study a ton of stats first.

My next thought goes back to the idea of making MECHs gigantic. I only did so in the first place, because the regular damage charts (light, medium, heavy) require casualty rolls too often for a vehicle that only has a crew of 1 Pilot. (almost all charts show a chance to destroy the target of ~50%)
But here comes a new problem. Gigantic vehicle's damage chart means I need to overpower Mechs' guns to even scratch paint of each other in a round of fire. Now they are totally overpowered, if they face "normal" vehicles like a medium hover tank.

So I'd like to go back to design level and say a Mech is a Light, Medium, Heavy or Gigantic vehicle, based upon its weight class. KISS - in TW, Mechs are vehicles in the same weight class, as they are per their rules in classic battletech.

This requires me to "group" weapons into "main gun(s)" and "secondary gun(s)" and "crew MG(s)". A Mech may therefore fire one main gun and one secondary gun in an activation. (if it has more main guns or secondary guns, you will have to choose. The rest of them cannot fire in this activation due to that going to overheat the Mech - KISS principle stikes once again and it also brings in heat-management from classic BT, without doing the math every time I pull a trigger! Mechs with MGs always can fire these in addition as MGs do not produce much heat)

What needs the only special rules, is Close Combat between vehicles that can do more than ram each other. bi-pedal machines of war can kick, drop-kick, jump-kick and stomp around. We really need to find a way allowing large robots, mechs etc. to club each other with something or "wrestle" with their arms. Again keeping those rules as simple as possible has to be the goal of all efforts..

Let me introduce a quick example sheet for reference, using a 60t Rifleman Mech to show you, how I put my ideas into practice:

Image

Look at the stats.
1. The Rifleman is a "heavy" Mech. It would have D12 armor values, but I reduced them to D10, because the Rifleman is described to be armored weak.

2. There are "Main Gun" and "Secondary Gun" lists. There also is one for MGs but as the Rifleman doesn't have any it simply states "none".
2.1 I split the Heavy Lasers into one being "main gun" and one being "secondary gun". This allows the Rifleman still to fire both (one "main" and one "secondary") at one target in one activation, but automaticly limits him to only fire the heavy lasers during that round (heat build-up limitation).
2.2 I also split the Autocannon/5 for the same reason. The rifleman can fire both AC/5 onto one or at two different targets in one activation. Again if he does so, these are the only guns he can utilize that round due to automatic heat-build up limits.
2.3 He may also use a combo of one Heavy Laser and one Autocannon if he wants to (remember, one main and one secondary gun can be fired during an activation)
2.4 The Medium Lasers will always fire at the same target (they are next to each other mounted in the torso, left + right) - that's why I made both of them one "main gun". You may add an AC/5 or a Heavy Laser from secondary guns to the mix, the way I made the stats card :wink:

3. The Rifleman is an air defense mech. Its special rules are in the appropriate section of the card.

4. I made it "advanced conventional armor" AND "laser resistant" due to being a heavy mech. Medium would have only "advanced conventional armor", Light Mechs would have no advantages. Super-heavys will include "energy resistant". It might be controversial to make the mech "poorly armored" first only to add advanced armor plating, but while the Mech is weak (for a "heavy mech") it still remains a heavy mech!

5. Life saver to make the pilot survive longer in case of a second hit on a damaged part (which would mean casualty check).


Can you guys now see how much thought goes through my mind about this. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:28 am 
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yep, I did a displacement crapload of BT conversions for a stillborn Battletech/Mechwarrior Hero campaign a while back... that took a lot of work. I've tinkered here and there with the files still, just never really done a lot with them, I know the pain/brain drain your probably going through

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:20 am 
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Three packets have arrived today. I am still sorting out what goes where but the first pics for Battletech in 15mm are up in my blog. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:05 am 
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looking good so far

working on more ideas: will get some stuff posted monday or tuesday

once we get the basic stuff sorted out, I have some ideas for adapting some of the advanced tech etc to TW

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:31 pm 
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shadowcat wrote:
looking good so far

working on more ideas: will get some stuff posted monday or tuesday

once we get the basic stuff sorted out, I have some ideas for adapting some of the advanced tech etc to TW


Sounds good, mate. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Designing TW units for Battletech background universe
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:40 am 
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Phew... its been a while. ;)

Well, I spent last night with writing, re-writing, brainstorming and finally came up with the following:

I'll introduce a new sort of vehicle to the TW meets BT universe. The "BattleMech Class Vehicle".
Basicly its the "Gigantic" vehicle from Tomorrow's War but with modified Damage Table. The new table doesn't have any "Casualty Checks" included, does not ask for Bail Out Tests and has all "brew up" and "vehicle kill" results replaced with a new category called "Critical Hit" that is followed by a dice type (i.e. "Critical Hit (D6)").

The Critical Hit Table again has a set of twelve lines in three columns (light gun, medium gun, heavy gun that caused the critical hit) with various events like "Heat Sink Damaged" (the lowest results) up to "Gyro K/O" (about medium sort of damage) and finally "Reactor Meltdown!" ( I guess you know what that will cause :twisted: ). Depending on the "Critical Hit" die (goes from D6 over D8 to D10) the results will cause instantly heavy damage or slowly build up penalties that will cost you TQ, FP or RT dice due to the vehicle getting harder to control or simply because it has taken too much of a beating.)

My wish was to create damage that will significantly lower the Mech's performance on the field but not yet kill it entirely. So basicly you now can take it apart piece by piece (with scoring critical hits) until you finally either kill the Pilot or render his BattleMech useless - or spectacularly blow it apart due to a lucky result. :mrgreen:

I added a doc file so you can follow my comments and leave some feedback (its work in progress and might change).


I also had my musings on the SRM and LRM weapon systems of Classic Battletech (Short or Long Range Missile).
They are always fired in salvos, depending on size (ie in BT you fire a LRM/20, that means 20 rockets are launched at once). However, due to the Fire Power cap you can't fire anything that uses more than 10 dice in Tomorrow's War - a rule I want to keep at all costs.
I also think that no matter how many missiles you fire, they all create the same damage upon hitting their target (means they have the same warhead). Its not important how many are launched, its important to know how many will hit! The more are fired, the more likely you'll score hits. I am no fan of dozens of nifty tables to see how many will hit, so I'll go another way and use the same idea as is incorporated in our Troop Quality rule:

Roll a 4+ to hit. Instead of calling out how many missiles are launched per salvo, I'll roll various sorts of die types to increase the chance of hitting.

So the Missile racks will use a different type of die as your TQ might be but that only shows that in the 3rd millenium they still are nothing but a modern type of Katyusha that only roughly is aimed towards the target and fired away.

Ideas:

Long Range Missiles: may not fire at targets closer than 18" (like on-table arty). Use AP:6/AT:4(M)
Short Range Missiles: may only fire at ranges up to 12" (they have heavier warheads). Use AP:6/AT:4(H)

LRM/5 = LRM/D6
LRM/10 = LRM/D8
LRM/15 = LRM/D10
LRM/20 = LRM/D12

SRM/2 = SRM/D8
SRM/4 = SRM/D10
SRM/6 = SRM/D12

Streak SRM = always roll D12 (representing the "target lock")

I hope that way I can recreate that a bigger salvo has a higher chance to score hits. So you still need only to roll a 4+ but depending on how many missiles the system fires at once, you need to pick the appropriate die type (instead of using your regular TQ type) which will ensure that chances rise to actually hit something. You still discard FirePower dice due to game effects like vehicle attributes!

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 Post subject: Re: Designing TW units for Battletech background universe
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:39 am 
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Following this interesting thread...

I am a great Battletech fan, but not playing it from a while because rules are going to "break" when the actual iteration "Total Warfare" goes to deal with little vhicles and infantry. The mechanized side of Battletech is today a total mess so TW seems ideal to simulate that level. I have not still the rules but I think that TW simulates the sort of walker that we see in "C.A.V." or in the Avatar movie. A Battlemech is more complicated in its nature and it needs a great amount of house rules. As soon as I have the book in my hands will think to my solution to share with you.


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