Hi guys I'm looking at putting a couple of platoons together for about 1985. I've found a few manufacturers that do awesome figures for this period, (elheim and liberation the best so far) but I cannot find a TO&E for this period at the squad/platoon level. I was going to just use the current b undeswehr as a model but am pretty sure the squads were higher than 6 men during the 80's.

I could be off with that however. Any ideas?

Wait until the fall for the release of the Cold War Gone Hot book?

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To children ardent for some desperate glory,
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DOH!!! Ha ha ha ha!

Bundeswehr squads aren't 6 men today, nor were they at any time in the past.


T,O&E for ~1985 will be included in the CWGH book though.

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Sgt. Screams 28mm/20mm/15mm Wargaming Blog (Modern, Sci-Fi)

Aye, I should have been more specific, I meant Panzergrenadier squads. Which are Six, I believe the rest are in 10's. Just wasn't wanting to wait till november to buy my gear. Though I could just paint up a load of it and then organise as and when I get the lists.

No, even Panzergrenadier are more than six. They are 9 today and they were 10 back in the '80s.
The six you refer to are only the "dismounts". No squad at any time in the Bundeswehr was ever only six men strong.

You won't need a Panzerfaust 3 for your dismounts (Pzf. 44 instead, also called Panzerfaust "leicht") and one of the squads' G3 will have a scope. The remainder of the squad is more or less equipped like today.

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Sgt. Screams 28mm/20mm/15mm Wargaming Blog (Modern, Sci-Fi)

Cheers for the info man. That'll at least help me get a start. It's cold war era around the mid 1980's I'm interested in to go with my Micro scale West German army for the same period. It'll make our clubs cold war campaigns much more interesting.

I must say though that both the Force on Force TO&E in the new rulebook and Battlefield Evolution Modern Combat state that a panzergrenadier squad is 6 men. I'm not trying to flog a point here mate, so I hope you don't think I'm just being obstinate. It's just got me a little confused.

The vehicle crews are Drawn from the squads assighned to them so a nine man squad would supply a 3 man crew leaving 6 dismounts, the vehicle crews stay with the vehicle to provide support to the dismounts. (Marder AFV). This organization is reflected in the NOFOF as well.....Mikey

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Ahhhhhh! Ok that makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Sorry Scream I don't think I read your comment on the dismounts correctly.

No, the FoF rules tell you exactly what the crew does and that they belong to the squad. I am sure of this, as I wrote them.

BTW, Bf Evo was supposed to say the same thing, but I guess my contribution to those rules were overruled by a certain individual at MGP.

Might be of interest for you, too:

Around 1985 the Grenadier battalions also had one company in M113 apc.
The reduction to 9 men came with the introduction of the Marder A2 and A3 versions. The new radio system and additional rounds for the MILAN atgm needed space, so one crew seat had to go.

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Sgt. Screams 28mm/20mm/15mm Wargaming Blog (Modern, Sci-Fi)

The 10th man was stricken from TOEs with the introduciton of the Marder 1A1 from 1977 to 1979, as the added Milan ATGM and its four rounds of ammo used up space. In the 1980s Bundeswehr ORBAT (Heerestruktur IV) the armored infantry batallions had M113s in their 3rd (and final) combat companies. One batallion in each armored infantry brigade (number 1 batallion) was a mixed batallion of armored infantry and tanks.

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"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." –- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

Great information on Heersstrukter IV - I have a quick question - whenwas the M113 withdrawn from service in the regulars? Heimatstruppen?

I do 28mm so the late 80s Bundeswehr is a royal pain to find figures for - I have the Eureka 28s but they have G36s and not G3s. I am considering using some of the new Mongrel Pakistanis with G3s to represent Heimatstruppen given they wear a 'German' style helmet. Thoughts?

Thanks!

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Tom

The M113 was never withdrawn from frontline service (Feldheer) or reserve forces (Territorialheer) up to today. But with Heeresstruktur 5 (1990-1992/1997) many TO&Es changed. The Panzergrenadierbattalions all received on and the same structure, so several lost their M113 companies, others lost their tank companies. The Territorialheer reserve forces were more and more downgraded and both of their active brigades were demobilized. Thus their light infantry battalions (Jägerbataillone) and organic M113s were mothballed. I'm not sure where you're aiming at, but during Heeresstruktur IV the M113 was quite alive and kicking.

Regarding 28mm figures, it's a royal pain in the ass. And I wouldn't know where to get good Cold War figures for Germany or the US.

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ad astra per aspera
liber et infractus

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." –- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

I served in 1994/95 in a Jägerbatallion. It was intendet that at least one company was equipped with the Fuchs APC, while the Mortars in the heavy company should be the the M113 vehicle variant. But because of the disarmament agrements in the early 90's none of these was realized. The whole Batallion was truck borned (with the Mercedes Unimog 2t). Even the Gebirgsjäger wich which had a similar organisation and where not Territoral troops had only enough Fuchs Transports for 1 Platoon (at least the unit in Mittenwald, i meet some guys from there and we talked about it.)

But the coolest weapon in the Jägerbatallion were the 2cm FlaK guns from the heavy company, they reminded me of the Flak 38 used in WWII.

Greetings
Wolflord

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