I'm planning to model some 20mm-scale adobe buildings in foamcore for use with 'Force on Force'. For Iraq they'll be mostly single-storey and have flat roofs with parapets and outside staircases. For Afghanistan they'll be somewhat rougher and have simple flat roofs without parapets.

My question is: Is it worth making the roofs removable?

I've tried this before but I found it very fiddly to take figures in and out and easy to forget where they are...

Obviously, the advantage of flat-roofed buildings is that you can simply put the figures on top and say they are inside, although this might get confusing if you have troops both inside and on top! Is the actual position of the troops significant under FoF rules? In many rules a BUA is a BUA is as BUA.

There's no need to make roofs that come off for FoF unless you want to. A group is said to occupy the space of the building if on top of it or inside it. Plus then you don't lose guys in buildings!

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i will build mine without removable roofs. you cant see the minis if they are in the houses so ill just take them off board if they are in a house and not on the roof.

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I have built both and I now lean toward not removable. 1st reason is most players dont take the time to place the figures in the building anyway. Our group places figures "in" the building against the outside of the building. Anyone on the roof gets placed on the roof. 2nd reason is non removable roofs help add to the strength of the structure. I have had one building break in transporting to a game when the person in front of me decided to slam on their brakes. The roof slipped out and the building just folded like a book when everything around it shifted. Thats another reason I now place all my buildings on bases too.

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I have done both ways suggested above.
Remove from the table or line up on the out side.

As long as everyone knows what or how it is played it shouldn't really matter.

When I built my 15mm trench I put removable roofs on the bunkers so the defending player could hide troops in them. Plus there is only one way in and one way out for the bunkers.

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Like the Lieutenant I've been wondering about the high Afghan compound walls. An attacker wouldn't be able to see over them from ground level while a defender would need some time to prepare them for defence, either putting something behind them to stand on or taking advantage of gaps where they are broken down. They would be very thick to loophole.

While on the subject of Afghan compounds, what overall size would best for 20mm on a 2' x 2' table?

I presume you are talking about a compound for a 2X2 table? In that case my suggestion is to go modular. Have buildings and walls of different lengths. That way you can "build" the compounds to fit your table and scenario needs. I have the compound that is made by "Britannia" and it measures 12 inches by 12 inches. Or about 1/4 of the table space of a 2X2 table.

On the other question. It seems that over time dirt and trash build up against the interior walls creating a bit of an uneven berm. Its enough for a fellow to stand on and be able to stick an AK over to spray and pray. Not exactly a prepared parapet but it works.

From what I understand with the ROE in place going into compounds now a days while conducting "Kinetic Action" isn't something that most troops do. Let the ANA guys do that and the SOF too. From recent accounts troops work around the outside walls and push the Taliban/Drug gangs out with maneuver. To quote General Longstreet a bit out of context; "The Taliban are as nervous about their flanks as a new bride on her wedding night."

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So then if I"m interpreting the current US military trend from this correctly:

From what I understand with the ROE in place going into compounds now a days while conducting "Kinetic Action" isn't something that most troops do. Let the ANA guys do that and the SOF too. From recent accounts troops work around the outside walls and push the Taliban/Drug gangs out with maneuver.

We treat these walls with a little trepidation and concern. The enemy is fairly safe behind and within them. We don't go through these mud & brick wall compounds anymore leads me to believe that they are very dangerous. Sounds to me that, they, like the Bocage hedge/walls of France in WWII, are for all purposes, impossible to see through, move through (without explosives), or fire through at random or at will, and hit anything.

And while I have not seen anything that tells me how thick they are, I have read at least 3 separate references to them being about 8' tall. So I'm guessing mouseholing through them at will, like in some wargame rules, would not be accurate or fair.

So if this is true, we'ld be more likely to just call in an airstrike than enter it. And for PR purposes, we can't afford to do that too often. So for my games, that rules out airstike bombing, and unless my players just want to stand around and look at eachother, the Regulars are gonna have to go in and make their way through my compound wall & building mazes (of sort) if they're gonna route out the Taliban and win the game.

Michael
PS: But that still does not answer my original question posed to those who have written these rules or know what page # the FoF answer is on.

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The concern is more with the PR end of COIN rather than any real dangers. Afghanistan is very tribal instead of national. Even ANA troops can cause a stink in a district if they are not of the same or a friendly tribe. Once the Americans breach the compound, and an 8 foot wall isnt that big an obstacle for infantry to get over if they arent carrying 150 pounds of gear and body armor, the claims start coming in for damages real and imagined. Getting the Americans to agree to pay a $1000+ USD for damages/ blood money means that you have just made 4 or 5 years yearly earnings.


And while I have not seen anything that tells me how thick they are, I have read at least 3 separate references to them being about 8' tall. So I'm guessing mouseholing through them at will, like in some wargame rules, would not be accurate or fair.

Once again dirt and trash build up over the years creating berms inside the walls. A shooter can stick an AK over the top of the wall and spray, or a dicker can look over to keep an eye on the patrol crossing through the area. ROE says that without a positive ID with weapon in hand you cant engage.

So if this is true, we'ld be more likely to just call in an airstrike than enter it. And for PR purposes, we can't afford to do that too often. So for my games, that rules out airstike bombing, and unless my players just want to stand around and look at eachother, the Regulars are gonna have to go in and make their way through my compound wall & building mazes (of sort) if they're gonna route out the Taliban and win the game.

Actually you probably would have air lined up and ready to go before a lawyer or someone at Brigade says you cant go guns hot. As for the rest yes you have it. Fire and maneuver is how things get done.

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Fire and maneuver is how things get done.

All right! Time to go in and kick some Jadji butt!

Michael
PS: I'm borrowing Jadji from Iraq ethnic slur lingo, what is the ethnic slur lingo for Taliban?

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Mate the OIF term is Haji or Hajji.

Slang term for Talibs is muj or Terry if you're a Brit.

As far as the rules question- there are specific OEF theatre specific rules coming soon. For now- I would not allow any LOS unless you go with the 'berms' as Cerberus says (scenario specific) or from the roof of higher internal buildings or guys on top of assault ladders. Mouseholing- I use standard breaching with dems charges rules (Brits normally use bar mines for this).

[color=#FFFF80][color=#BFFF40][color=#FFFFBF][color=#FFFF00]Leigh
Thanks. And thanks for the correction in spelling. I have never seen Haji printed, only spoken, and figured it had a "J" for Jihad,(even though Jihad is pronounced Gee-had). And "Muj" I am guessing is short for Mujadeen (sp?).

And I will be using the buildings' roof-tops and while I'm currently building it, within my Mosque walled compound. I'm not sure what the term is for the lower connecting mud palisade (?) wall sections, that provides a way to walk around and defend the outer walls of a Mosque compound.

Always lots to learn in this wargaming hobby. I doubt the general public has any idea how much we research so many little details in a day, just as a by product of our involvement in this hobby. It sure is a lot more that just "pushing around lead".
Michael[/color][/color][/color][/color]

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Just come across this PDF which clarifies wall thickness and provides other interesting detail: www.science.mod.uk/controls/getpdf.pdf?385